“Since you are making these comparisons, plese tell me a time in history when Muslims killed other Muslims.”

Someone else(Saudia, post #27) has provided some historical evidence of ethinic Islamic genocide. Of course, we could simply look at the sectarian violence in Iraq to see it in the modern day. Even in America, in a form of Islam whose world acceptance I’m not sure of, we have the asassination of Malcom.

I’ve done some reading since the last post and it seems that the Quran may suggest and allow more aggression toward unbelievers than I previously thought. It also appears that there are additional ideas in the hadith(writings describing the sayings and doings of the Prophet while he lived on the earth).

In the case of Mr. Rahman, the Quran leaves the judgement for the next world and only says, [3:86]“Why should GOD guide people who disbelieved after believing, and after witnessing that the messenger is truth, and after solid proofs have been given to them? GOD does not guide the wicked.

[3:87] These have incurred condemnation by GOD, and the angels, and all the people.

[3:88] Eternally they abide therein; the retribution is never commuted for them, nor will they be reprieved.

[3:89] Exempted are those who repent thereafter, and reform. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.

When Repentance is Unacceptable

[3:90] Those who disbelieve after believing, then plunge deeper into disbelief, their repentance will not be accepted from them; they are the real strayers.

[3:91] Those who disbelieve and die as disbelievers, an earthful of gold will not be accepted from any of them, even if such a ransom were possible. They have incurred painful retribution; they will have no helpers.”

In the hadith the Prophet is quoted as saying: “Whoever changes his religion, kill him”. Unlike Christianity there is more than one source for action, since the demand to kill an apostate while he is still alive is NOT in the “Book”(Quran). This leads to the confusion of Sharia law calling for the death of an apostate when the Quran does not specifically prescribe it. No wonder the Clerics are so powerful when they can interpret multiple sources.

From what I’ve read, unbelievers seem to fall into a number of categories, “People Of The Book”(Muslims, Jews, Christians) who are mentioned by name in the Quran, infidels, which includes Jews and Christians, and Pagans, which are not in the Book. There are many verses that effectively state that all the unbelievers will be fodder for the everlasting fire. The most ugly of thesee involve a bit of sadism, “Those that deny Our revelation, We will burn in fire. No sooner will their skins be consumed than we will give them other skins, so that they may truly taste the scourge. God is mighty and wise” [4:55-56]

As far a friendship toward the West goes, the Quran tells Muslims not to get friendly, “Believers, do not seek the friendship of the infidels and those who were given the Book before you, who have made of your religion a jest and a pastime”[5:57], “Believers, do not make friends with any but your own people. They will spare no pains to corrupt you. They desire nothing but your ruin…”[3:188].

How would one know if a Muslim friend was truly a friend if avoiding unbelieving friends is a duty? Does this mean the friendship is feigned for a purpose?

Several hadith directives that might be worth lising is, Jihad is your duty under any rule, be he godly or wicked, and that, He who dies without having taken part in a campaign dies in a kind of unbelief.

There isn’t room here to list all the verses that doom the unbeliever. Many are unrelated to any specific group or nation - just unbelievers - although there are references to Jews and Christians.

I feel kind of mislead by some of the interviews that I’ve observed with influential, educated, Muslims during the runup to and the current wars.

I don’t know whether to think that most Muslims have moved beyond the mean-spirited rhetoric of the Quran, except in the more backward and poor countries, or, the Grim Reaper is just buying me a drink before we go outside and the real business begins.

If this is a date with Grim then our leaders have made a fateful decision that is pitting Islam and Christianity against each other in what will be a conscience numbing exercise for both sides.

I’m going to think this over for a while.

At this point, one could try to make the comparison between what I just said above and the current war in Iraq. The truth is, American soldier are over there to fight against the very people that have terrorized the innocent people of that country for years. Sure you had Abu Graib (sp?), that that was only a tiny, tiny piece of the overall picture that will show you American soldiers rebuilding the infrastructure and lives while respecting the culture and religion of that country. These are the kind of things you will not see on television. Although Saddam was not a “real” Muslim, many who claim to be of that faith were in bed with him for years while he trashed that country. After the US invasion, while Saddam was hiding in a cave, those that had ties with him in other Muslim countries distanced themselves from him. Instead of dealing with the fact that Saddam was destroying the lives of good Muslims, I have personally found that quite a few Muslims both here and abroad conveniently overlook that fact and immediately make the whole thing into a reinactment of the Crusades.

Although we may not agree when it comes to religion, I really appreciate the fact that you have stuck around to at least address some of the questions/issues me and others have about Islam. Trust me, as far as this site goes, you have been a fortunate rarity.

Now (minus the fact that terrorism in the name of Islam is happening today), would it be fair for me or anybody else to judge all of Islam based on the events you mentioned above?

Hope this is the anwer you were looking for.

For over 400 years, the Serbian Orthodox population of Bosnia-Hercegovina lived under Turkish Muslim occupation and rule, maintained by repression and exploitation. The Turks captured and executed the last medieval Bosnian king of the Kotromanic dynasty, Stefan Tomasevic. To ensure their rule and domination over the indigenous Christian Serbian and Croat populations, the Turks forcefully converted the local population under a policy of Turkification or Islamicization or applied intense pressure which was tantamount to forced conversion to create Islamicized Slavs (poTurcenaci), the ancestors of the present-day Bosnian Slavic Muslims, referred to as “Turks” (Turci) by non-Muslims and many Muslims themselves. In an era that pre-dated nationalism, religion was the only criteria of identification. To convert to Islam was to accept Turkish culture, customs, political system and political future. Thus, when the Austro-Hungarian Empire occupied Bosnia, many Slavic Muslims left Bosnia with the Turkish administrative officials and military forces, settling in Turkey. There were several key factors which made Bosnia highly conducive to Islamicization by the Turks. First, Bosnia was at that time an undeveloped, isolated, and backward region where religious, cultural, and national links were weakly established and tenuous and where ethnic and religious boundaries were not clearly defined or delineated. Muslims committed four-large scale genocides against Eastern Orthodox Christians. The first Muslim genocide was in 1876 against the Bulgarian Orthodox Christians. Over 12,000 men, women, and children were brutally exterminated by the Ottoman Turks. The second Muslim genocide occurred in 1896 against the Armenian Orthodox Christians. Several thousand Armenian men, women, and children were massacred by Muslim Turks and Kurds. Sultan Abdul Hamid II stated that the way to get rid of the Armenian question is to get rid of the Armenians. The third Muslim genocide occurred in 1915 again against the Orthodox Armenians. Using the cover of the World War, the Ottoman Turks exterminated several million Armenian men, women, and children in a large-scale genocide. The fourth Muslim genocide occurred in Bosnia-Hercegovina and Kosovo-Metohija from 1941-1945 and was conducted by Bosnian Muslims and Kosovo Albanians against Orthodox Serbs.

Fact are facts Catholic are not Christians.

Saying that makes one a bigot how?

How did you come to the conclusion that Duane is/sound like an anti-Catholic bigot? No…no…never mind don’t try to answer that, it’s okay. The bottom line is that you don’t have a clue of what is being discussed, so just like any other judgemental, closed-minded bigot you had to say something rather it made sense or had any real meaning or truth in it. Next time THINK and READ BEFORE you SPEW!