Born gay?
Nothing else will be posted to this site until tomorrow afternoon/evening due to the importance of this topic.ÂÂ
If you have been reading this website this week, you will recall that we touched on the topic of homosexuality. As I pointed out, this issue cannot be equated to the blood, sweat, and tears of blacks in this country. Although it is very true that homosexuals were a part of our pursuit for equality, sexual preference was not the reason why blacks endured what we endured. African slaves that were brought to this country only to be separated from all family ties, cut off from any hope of financial independence, subjected to some of the most inhumane conditions imaginable, raped in an attempt to breed us out of existence in some cases, etc. does not even pale in comparison to the many freedoms homosexuals enjoy today.
As I mentioned earlier, this issue boils down to one single statement: Like what we do–accept it as part of YOUR moral fabric or you are a bigot!
Although it is unfortunate to hear of stories of family members totally disowning one of their own for “coming out”, what you will not hear from many homosexual activists are the equally sad stories of family members who are slated as bigots for not being able to process and accept their sexual preference on this individual’s timetable. News like this can take months, even years for a family member to accept. To these activists groups, sensitivity is a one-way street.
Between today and Monday, I want to deal more with this whole question “Can a person be born gay?” Admittedly, my case will be very short and one-sided which means I am open for the criticism. With that being said, if you disagree with my point of view, present your case, show me where I am factually wrong, and be man or woman enough to take the criticism as well WITHOUT THE NAME-CALLING (as it the previous post). If you have no point of view and just don’t like to hear any kind of criticism, please don’t waste the time to comment.
For now, I will just present a few links and excerpts that I have come across on the net.
Article 1
EDITORIAL, Jul 28 (VNN)  Stephen Bennett is a former homosexual, who lived the “gay” lifestyle for 11 years. Today he’s married and has two young children. He’s also a born-again Christian who has a ministry to men and women who want to be set free from homosexuality. Whenever he’s invited to appear on television news programs, though, Stephen says most won’t let him tell his story truthfully. And they won’t let him say that he’s a former homosexual. (more…)
Article 2
A former homosexual speaks out about homosexuality and the politics of dishonesty
Article 3
Article 4
Former lesbian says change comes from inside out
Article 5
Ex-Gay Black Activist Denounces Homosexuality
Article 6
And here’s a huge list of testimonies
(Please note: If you are going to take the easy route by automatically rejecting any of these testimonies as that I posted here as false or coerced, please indicate weather or not if you personally have gone through the programs mentioned in these articles.)
The question that summarizes my case: If a person can be born gay (like one can be born black), why is there factual evidence to show gays becoming straight?
April 2nd, 2006 at 3:38 pm
There are stories of people who have been “converted” who go back to that “lifestyle”.
There are incidences, a few that I know of personally, where a child was sexually abused, either same sex or opposite sex, and they are now homosexuals.
There are incidences where people say they have always been attracted to those of the same sex.
I think there is a percentage of homosexuals who really are born wired that way.
April 2nd, 2006 at 6:49 pm
One would think the Creator had a plan in mind when fashioning the human race. From my point of view there is no way to get around the fact that men and women connect on a different mental and spritual note of which gay couples immitate even to a point of taking more masculine or feminine roles. But I wanted to bring up the fact that there are birth defects so our design isn’t perfect but even with that fact in hindsight I find it hard to believe that we can be born gay and that its not a choice people make. I’m open minded enough to not persecute gays but I can’t say I understand or support their views. I’ve read that being gay could be a mental cop out to avoid the reproductive and social responsibilities of being men and women why else would they want an equitable existence. Or even why should we forget our sexuality and ignore the immorality of such a situation in short if it was ment to be that way then I think they would be able to reproduce. To me it gets no clearer than that.
April 2nd, 2006 at 6:51 pm
Also as a man how can you see the curvaciousness of the black woman and not want that.
April 2nd, 2006 at 7:43 pm
These so called “ex-gays” may proclaim that they were once 100% homosexual, but the truth is…they were and are bisexual. As for my self, and I am now 46 years old, I have never remotely been attracted to a woman. However, a few years ago I married my best female friend in an effort to fit in. It was the most miserable few time of my life. I ruined a beautiful friendship while knowing all the time I was living a lie! When these ex-gays talk about how deep down they felt wrong or bad about the way they lived , for a completely gay man or woman, living the hetero life feels horrible wrong!! I know for a fact that I was born gay. And no…I was not molested as a child,I had a strong father figure growing up. Yet I can recall having “crushes” on other boys as far back as the second grade. So quite frankly…I don’t care what these guys have to say, because in my own heart I know who I am… and that is a GAY man! End of my story!!!!
April 2nd, 2006 at 9:46 pm
And you met and know these people from where? All I can do here is go by what they are saying unless you have some actual proof to the contrary.
While I do realize that not all homosexuals have been molested as children, there are numbers who have been. It is also true that those that have been molested have not always turned out to be homosexual. Bottom line? Your experience cannot trump the experience of others. Just because it did not “work out” for you does not mean it has not worked for others.
Just curious, do/did your parents know about your orientation? If so, what was their reaction?
Thanks for your time.
April 3rd, 2006 at 5:06 am
I have to agree with the idea of bi-sexual, though I have no clue on the percentage.
If a man is able to be “on the down low”, that means he has sex with women. If you are a homosexual, my assumption is, as a man, you wouldn’t be able to take part in the act.
April 3rd, 2006 at 5:38 am
Okay, let’s review…
Each one of the articles that I have posted are stories of a man or woman that USED to be homosexual. Smith has made the statement that these individuals “…were and are bisexual.” If they are no longer having same gender sex, how are they still considered bisexual? DS–I do agree with you in the case where a person is on the DL, but this does not apply to people who have left that lifestyle all together.
April 3rd, 2006 at 7:07 am
I know that this is not a popular or “politcally correct” thing to say, but here goes…I do not believe that people are born gay. I believe that all people, because of the fallen nature of man are born into sin and each of us have inate weaknesses or tendencies. It could be lying, stealing, sexual and so on. Because we are all born into sin and have this fallen nature, our weaknesses can be encouraged or discouraged by events that happen, our parents or by our choice as we get older. When people say that I have always been gay or I knew at a young age, that is true, just like you don’t have to teach a child to lie or steal. I know that a lot of you are going to get mad at me, but the bottom line is that sin is sin. My sin is no different than your sin. And we all need a loving Savior to forgive our sins. If you are homosexual it is by your choice. In all the testimonies of the people that came out of that lifestyle they basically say I CHOSE to come out of that lifestyle. God gave us all choices and we are responsible for the choices that we make. If you make the choice to live as a homsexual, that is your choice and you will be responsible for that choice and the consequences of that choice. Let me just say to any person that may be reading this and you say you are a homosexual /lesbian, I as a Christian do not hate you, to do so would be a sin. God loves you and according to His Word He hates sin no matter what it is. Don’t take my word for it read it for yourself.
April 3rd, 2006 at 8:28 am
Duane, I have a number of friends (and relatives) who are gay and lesbian. To a person, they all say that they were never attracted to someone of the opposite sex, and that it simply was impossible to “force it.”
Think about it. Did you have to think long and hard about whether you would wish to have relationships with men instead of women? I sure did not.
And - why would so many people choose to face discrimination in the work place, with family, legal difficulties, etc., if all this were a mere choice?
Your stories of people who “were” gay and become straight I believe fall into two categories. One category is those who really are gay folks, but who, because of extreme prejudice, religious teaching, etc., have such guilt & shame over who they are, ultimately feel “forced” into living a heterosexual lifestyle.
The others are those who perhaps are on the edge of being heterosexual or gay.
I do think that our sexuality is a continuum. Some of us are in the hazy middle - just as some of us have far higher sex drives than others.
I personally find it sad that we cannot recognize the differences between us - and then accept the minority who really are “born gay” and allow them to live and love with another adult of their choice.
April 3rd, 2006 at 9:39 am
To Peg,
You said:
“Think about it. Did you have to think long and hard about whether you would wish to have relationships with men instead of women? I sure did not.”
People that do not have these weaknesses do not have to think long and hard about homosexuality. Just as you do not have to think long and hard about whether or not you should steal or any other thing you see other people do and you can’t imagine why they would do that.
You said:
“And - why would so many people choose to face discrimination in the work place, with family, legal difficulties, etc., if all this were a mere choice?”
As I said before with our choices come resposibility of the consequences. For lack of a better example: A burglar does not choose to go to prison, but with the choice comes the resposibilty of the consequence. That goes not only for Homosexuals but all of us.
It becomes a problem when we make choices and expect everyone to agree and condone our choice. If a person that has chosen to live as a homosexual is at peace with their choice then so be it. However it does not change that it is a sin as any other sin and all sin has consequences.
April 3rd, 2006 at 9:50 am
Peg–
Question: How many do you know face the same type of discrimination as black folks (I asked you this question last time and I am still awaiting your answer).
As far as the stories that I have posted, I will ask you the same question that I asked earlier: Do you personally know that these people are not telling the complete truth about their “transformation”? I frankly don’t care what you believe–I want you to prove to me that these stories are false.
Just as I have to take a homosexual’s word for it that he/she is happy in their sexuality, I also have to take the examples’ that I provided word for it as well UNTIL PROVEN OTHERWISE.
No. What is really sad here is that if I don’t personally like a person’s sexual preference (something that THEY make known) and I just voice that opinion–that’s it, I am the one that is seen as intolerant. If a person chooses to make their sexuality known (something that most folks keep in the bedroom), they should not find it strange that criticism exists. I feel the same way regarding heterosexuals.
So the question still remains unanswered, Peg:
And the last I checked, nobody went to bed last night one race only to wake up as another.
April 3rd, 2006 at 9:51 am
What I see here is essentially the casual airing of social and ideological predudices, with only the weakest of anecdotal evidence to back up any claims. If you would like to approach an issue like this, here is an idea: why not acquaint yourself with a scientific study or two? Is the reason that you might not find the answers you want to hear?
Another idea–has it occurred to you that a primary reason that homosexuals have not endured a fraction of the persecution that black people on the whole have endured is that it is easy to hide homosexuality? And that most homosexuals, particularly black gay males (whose community is one of the most bigoted concerning this) choose to play “straight” (which often leads to the promiscuous and dangerous “DL” phenomenon). It is as easy to do that, by the way, as it is to claim oneself “cured” of homosexuality, by the way, and the social rewards are just as real. Trust me, if there were a “cure,” I would not have to pretend that I am a different person than who I actually am every day of my life.
The sort of bigotry, not only in the black community, but deeply ingrained in the hearts and minds of black gay men ourselves (that’s how pervasive it is) is what leads to DL–and this involves many more black men than you think (white men too, although not as prevalently). Does anyone really wonder why AIDS is growing so rapidly among black women? It is not because of homosexuality per se, but because of the disgusting, underground, locker room promiscuity to which black gay and bisexual men are driven by the predudices of the very community that should love and support them, whatever gender they find themselves attracted to.
One more thing. “If you are homosexual it is by your choice.” If you think this through, it is one of the most ridiculous things to say. Why would anyone choose to be considered “sinful” “dirty” “sick” or “deformed” (to use many of the characterizations from this very forum) when they could just as easily “choose” to live a normal, socially sanctioned way of life with some “curvacious” black woman? Do you remember the moment when you “chose” to be attracted to that woman, or did it just happen? If you wanted to, could you “choose” to be attracted to someone of the opposite sex? Its not how it works!
April 3rd, 2006 at 10:02 am
And, by the way, Duane, websites that are are overtly Christian and “Conservative” do not count as “scientific.” These are groups that display the very sort of bigotry I was writing about–why should we expect them to deal with issues even-handedly, when they have an ideological goal from the get-go?
April 3rd, 2006 at 10:04 am
Matt,
Like what you just did in your entire comment. So please! You immediately cancel out my opinion without factually proving otherwise. And as far as refering to a scientific study to prove my point, would that even matter to you?
Do you remember the moment when you “chose†to be attracted to that woman, or did it just happen? If you wanted to, could you “choose†to be attracted to someone of the opposite sex? Its not how it works!
How it works is FORTUNATELY I had the type of upbringing where my manhood was encouraged–not forced upon me. I had men around me that were more than willing to answer any questions that I had about sex without making me feel ashamed of myself. This is what is lacking in our society. The results may not always be homosexuality for those who did not grow up in such an environment, but it does happen.
April 3rd, 2006 at 10:10 am
Well you have certainly made your sexuality known here in this forum, Duane, and anytime your in public or with friends I’m sure you assume that everyone assumes that you are straight because of the way you act and the casual references you and other straight guys maks to women in general, your wife, girlfriend or whatever. Being straight is part of who you are, and it would be wrong for anyone to expect you to act differently. Of course, you can rest assured, as a straight man, that you will not be persecuted for it. Seems natural, but you dont realize what a luxury that is.
April 3rd, 2006 at 10:10 am
For those who don’t like to read, let me post this again:
(Please note: If you are going to take the easy route by automatically rejecting any of these testimonies as that I posted here as false or coerced, please indicate weather or not if you personally have gone through the programs mentioned in these articles.)
A man’s experience goes much further than any argument. So don’t reject the experience if you have never gone through it yourself.
Second part
The question that summarizes my case: If a person can be born gay (like one can be born black), why is there factual evidence to show gays becoming straight?
So again, if you cannot prove that the testimonies that I have posted are false, all you are doing is venting–not making your case.
April 3rd, 2006 at 10:12 am
It’s been a busy weekend, and I haven’t had a chance to catch up with comments here, but I wanted to take a shot at the statement above.
“Something that most folks keep in the bedroom”?
Well, that may be true if you’re talking about specific sexual acts. And I’d agree with you. I don’t want to hear the details about what most folks do in bed. But if you’re simply talking about identifying as homosexual or heterosexual, then I don’t buy that most heterosexuals “keep it in the bedroom.”
Hardly a day goes by that heterosexuals aren’t in one way or another making their sexual orientations known, from innocent public displays of affection like holding hands, to going on public dates, to wedding announcements in the newspaper and wedding bands on their fingers, to family outings, to media portrayals of heterosexuality, etc. It’s nothing for a heterosexuals to mentions his/her spouse or significant other in casual conversation, to have a family photo on one’s desk at work, and even bring spouses and S.O.’s to office holiday parties. It’s pretty much everywhere but the bedroom. Very few keep their heterosexuality a secret. Most “make their sexuality known” on a daily basis, without encountering hostility or discrimination as a result. It’s something they can take for granted
Simply being openly gay, if I observe the same general rules of decorum applied to heterosexuals, doesn’t mean I’m divulging details of my sex life. If I do all of the above, in other words just what everybody else does, I’m not telling anybody what goes on in my bedroom any more than anyone else is. Someone who sees my family out grocery shopping, for example, will at least pick up that my partner and I are a same-sex couple raising a child. But they won’t know any more about what happens in our bedroom then they will the heterosexual couple in the next aisle. They don’t know what we do. They know something about who we are and what we are to each other.
Basically, I’m as open about my life as the average heterosexual. Maybe I have the audacity to assume I have, or should have, that right. I’d like to be able to do so without encountering any hostility or discrimination than the anyone else.
April 3rd, 2006 at 10:13 am
I am gay, and was raised in quite the manner that you are describing to me. My brothers who grew up in the same house are all straight.
April 3rd, 2006 at 10:13 am
Matt,
You are correct in saying that we cannot change ourselves, we need someone higher than us to help us make that change. But we have to first make a choice to want to change. Once again, if you are at peace and happy being a homosexual then no need to get upset, but if you desire to change, then God is always there to help you.
April 3rd, 2006 at 10:28 am
Duane, although I did not go through some sort of six-week straightness boot-camp (I suppose, the equivalent of a summer camp for fat kids?) I did go through a fairly extensive counciling program with my church when I began to realize that I was gay. While they never changed the way I felt about other men, they did encourage me to act more “macho,” to keep from acting on my impulses, all while my self-hatred for having the persistant thoughts I had was growing inside. And all this time, I called myself straight–all this time, by all outward appearances, I was straight. But inside, you see, I was not. You do not think that there is a chance that at least some of these cases to which you refer are of a similar nature?
I do not have time to quote any studies to refute the efficacy of the so-called “factual evidence” of these programs that supposedly “cure” homosexuality, as I have a class to teach soon, but it should not take too long for you to dig much material up (trying for a .edu address might be a step in the direction of legitimacy, if that’s truly what you are looking for).
April 3rd, 2006 at 10:34 am
So just because it did not happen for you, everybody else who has claimed to have success is lying in your book, right?
Again, if I was to provide information that proved otherwise, would it matter to you? Or would you question the politics or religion of the person doing the study?
So is it safe for me to assume that the moment you realized you you were attracted to men (assuming at a young age)–regardless if you felt awkward or not, you shared your feelings to your father and brothers, right?
April 3rd, 2006 at 11:13 am
Matt,
if you truly believe that you were born gay and have no question about it, then no one will have to prove anything to you. When it is all said and done, it is you and you alone (like all of us) that will live with your decisions and the
consequences.
April 3rd, 2006 at 12:05 pm
Terrance,
The fact that you identify yourself as a homosexual in a world that has been built on heterosexual relationships will in no doubt bring criticism (both constructive and destructive). So yes, you are bringing what you do in the bedroom into the public eye.
Are we to assume that you and your partner just hold hands and have good conversation?
As you indicated, your relationship does stick out in most crowds the same as if someone that chooses to wear jeans at a wedding. Anytime a person or persons stick out from the norm, the questions will always follow. Not once here have I called anybody a name or condoned the mistreatment of homosexuals (I live in SoCal for goodness sakes, so if the very presence of homosexuals drove me into rage, this would not be the place to be). All I have done here was a)expressed an opinion, and b) challenged readers to factually refute my point of view. I have admited that I was wrong quite a few times on this site, so that is no problem on this end. The problem that I see here is that NO ONE is willing to factually refute any of my points. All I have seen so far is venting. I’ll say it again, just as I am to believe that you and your partner are happily joined, (something I cannot prove), I equally cannot prove that the testimonies in this post are false. All I can do is take there word for it as true. I’ve asked readers to prove that these individuals are lying, and nobody has been able to do so. All I have seen is “It didn’t happen or work for ME, so they must be lying”.
April 3rd, 2006 at 12:10 pm
No, I did not share these feelings immediately with my father (I did with only one of my brothers), because my father, like many people in our society, hated “faggots,” which was the term he used.
And yes, VB, you are right about nobody needing to prove anything to me. But neither should I be subject to the judgments of self-righteous ideologues who suggest that there is some need to change one’s sexual orientation in the first place, instead of trying to change the society that sees gayness as so terribly bad.
Also, the conversation here began among other things with the statement,
While the spirit of this comment is true (blacks AS blacks have endured more than homosexuals AS homosexuals, there are distinctions to be made. One, as I mentioned before, is that blackness cannot be hidden as can homosexuality. And the fact that homosexuality can be hidden does not solve the problem of homophobia within the black community–because nobody should have to keep a giant portion of their lives top secret and live in shame.
Another distinction has to do with the phrasing of the quote above. One might also have said “the movement for equality of women cannot be equated with the blood sweat and tears of blacks in this country.” The problem with both statements is that they assume that the movement for equality of blacks in this country is represented by straight black men (just take a look at how many sisters involved in the Black Power movement were so horribly mistreated by their “brothers”). To suggest that black women’s and black homosexuals’ concerns are secondary to the issues of black people as a whole, is to effectively erase them and co-opt the whole thing on behalf of straight black men. Sorry, but all black people are not straight (or male).
Sorry for the repeated rants on this discussion. . . I had my Wheaties this morning, along with perhaps a little too much coffee.
April 3rd, 2006 at 12:18 pm
I can’t speak for Matt, but based on my own experience, I don’t think that’s safe to assume. I realized I was same sex-oriented at a very early age, as early as pre-school or kindergarten. There wasn’t a conscious choice involved. It wasn’t until I was about 10 that I had a name for it, and when puberty set in it was confirmed.
I was also raised baptist. I had heard enough about my parents’ opinions on being gay, to know that the news wouldn’t be well received and might be met with anger. I didn’t know whether they would throw me out of the house or ship me off to some kind of “reparative therapy” camp against my will, or cut me off financially, as commonly happens to some kids. In short it was clear to me that it was not safe to share the news with anyone in my family.
I didn’t tell my siblings until I was in college. Fortunately, by then, they’d grown to be much more supportive and accepting and still are. I didn’t tell my parents until I was well beyond their control and no longer dependent on them financially. The reason is because the hostility with which the subject was met when it wasn’t related to me made it clear that coming out at that age would probably have had severe negative consequences.
What I heard at home was pretty much the same rejection and derision I heard from my peers. There was no reason to think they’d be supportive, so why tell them? Besides, I knew if I could hold on until I went to college and got away from home I’d have a lot more freedom, and could build a life somewhere in a place where I could find acceptance. And that’s what happened.
April 3rd, 2006 at 12:19 pm
So, without trying to prove that anyone was lying in his/her testimonial on these websites, I would like to question the implicit assumption underneath all of this–that being gay is bad, and should be treated as a disorder that should be cured.
For those of you interested in the opinion of those who know a bit more than myself about all this, here is a link to the American Psychologic Association’s page on this topic.
April 3rd, 2006 at 12:28 pm
I’d also agree with Matt on one other thing. I think it’s a mistake for anyone to equate the gay rights movement with the civil rights movement. The simple reason is that, while both involve a group fighting against discrimination, they have very different histories. Gays in America don’t have the same history as blacks in America. Black gays, of course, share the histories of both. Either way, I don’t think it’s necessary for people to compare the two, and it just leads to a kind of oneupsmanship of “who’s more oppressed,” and stereotypes about all gays being white and wealthy (even though we’re black, brown, and every other color; and even though some of us are also middle class, and even poor), all of which distracts from the point: discrimination.
I think there are lots of people who, no matter what they believe about whether homosexuality is right or wrong, can agree that people shouldn’t be discriminated against. At the end of the day, people can believe what they want as far as I’m concerned. I care more about how they treat me and my family. I want my family to have the same rights and protections as anyone else, like my brother’s family or my sister’s family. Period.
Anything less than that is what I call discrimination. It’s not just having separate drinking fountains or having to sit in the back of the bus (among other things). And people who advocate for discrimination against me and my family are the people I call bigots.
April 3rd, 2006 at 1:06 pm
Actually, this whole discussion started out as an opinion against the belief that being gay is like being black. This led to the main question of this post “Can a person be born gay?”. Weather or not homosexuality is wrong or not is up to you. Don’t think that I am going to rake you over the fires of hell for not believing as I believe. You, like I have opinions and beliefs. The whole purpose of this forum was to challange those beliefs–not disrespect anybody.
As far as the scientific studies go, there was also a study done that made the point that blacks were inferior to whites. Should we then refer to that simply because it is a “independent” study?
No, I prefer to hear from real people and their experiences. If you believe that you have found happiness in your life choices, then all I can do is take you at your word. I also have to do the same for individuals who also claim that they found happiness by completely leaving that lifestyle.
Matt, you sound like a good guy (not that I thought anything differently). Thanks for sharing your point of view. Hopefully this will not be the last time our paths will meet.
I’ve got to take care of some more pressing matters right now, so I may not return to this particular post until later this evening.
April 3rd, 2006 at 1:10 pm
Gosh Duane I guess you were not clear when you asked the question. Here is your answer. No you can not be born gay unless you believe that being gay is a birth defect. No part of being is natural. Just as having a clubbed footed is not normal. You can live with it. Adapted to it, heck maybe even learn to use it to your advantage but no it is not normal or natural. Homosexuality is not engrained at birth. VB said it best
“because of the fallen nature of man are born into sin and each of us have innate weaknesses or tendenciesâ€Â
Now of course some of you are going to say that you are not Christian. (Me either, Muslim) Some of you are going to say that you don’t believe in God. Then my dear friends continue being homosexual and we will see how the chips fall at that end of time. But just like I bring attention to my religion (which isn’t popular in America these days) I must reap the consequences of that. If you hold hands with your mate in public or show up at PTA then just be prepared to deal with the consequences. Please no personal attacks just my opinion.
April 3rd, 2006 at 2:13 pm
Here is the APA link I foolishly forgot to pastet in my last post:
http://www.psych.org/psych_pract/copptherapyaddendum83100.cfm
Being gay is like being black for me, as a gay black man. It’s like Audre Lorde called herself a “a black feminist lesbian mother poet” because she acknowledged that it is impossible to seperate the many diverse aspects of who she is as a person. I am not gay one day and then black the next, or gay in one discussion, black in another, and black/male in the next. Just like you are not simply black, Duane, and must realize that you speak not exactly from a black perspective, not exactly from a black male perspective, but a black/straight/male perspective. I recommend looking up Lorde and also bell hooks for enlightening discussions of how (straight) black males have at tendency to claim ownership of the black cause, just like white, middle-class straight females co-opt women’s movements.
It’s not so much a matter of whether “being gay is like being black.” Being black and gay is like being. . .well, black and gay, just like being white and gay is not the same as being black and gay or asian and lesbian, or black, straight and female. Identity and discrimination are very complicated, and each of us experiences them a little bit differently.
No offenses meant or taken Duane. All in the name of a good discussion.
April 3rd, 2006 at 5:48 pm
Just because a person has been born a certain way does not mean that is is normal or desireable. The most obvisous examples are people who are born with downs syndrome, physically deformed, or with genetic diseases. Then there are also psychological abnormalities, people who wish to surgically change genders, and people who are born pedophiles…
I truly feel sorry for the suffering of people at the fringe of humanity, but I do not think that militancy, by any constituency, over this issue will achieve the desired results. The desired result is to let everyone personally decide how they will respond to divine guidance (see: Bible).
Finally, if something is wrong at least be honest enough to say: “what I am doing is wrong. But I do not care. However I will not insist that anyone else support me in what I am doing”
April 4th, 2006 at 12:20 am
Wow, lots of posts on this. Duane, my perspective on you question, “If a person can be born gay (like one can be born black) why is there factual evidence to show gays becoming straight?”…
First, I think your question assumes that there are gay/straight categories that people fall neatly into. I think that it’s likely to be more of a continuum as one of the previous posters mentioned (there is research to support this as well). So if there is a continuum then it is most likely those towards the middle of that continuum who “become straight” rather than those at the extremes.
Secondly, I don’t think you can really equate the concept being black with being gay in this case. Race, in the way I believe you were referring to it, is a stricly biological feature (how black as person’s skin is) whereas sexual orientation is a behavior. Both are influenced by genetics but sexual orientation also has a heavy environmental component to it whereas race has next to none. While someone my have genetic traits for “gayness” it may or may not be behaviorally expressed due to the interaction with the environment. Those who became straight may have been those who were born gay and for whatever reason, the environment in which they were in “suppressed” the gentic inclination (which may not have been that strong to begin with depending on the individual).
It is clear to me that people “can” be born gay. The fact that two boys raised in the same household can have two very different sexual orientations is strong evidence for genetic influence in my book. I’ve seen this in two of my friends and one of your posters gives personal testimony to it. There is also scientic evidence for it.
Bottom line for me is even if it is possible for a gay person to become straight, it is unethical and franky ridiculous to suggest that gays should become straight like the rest of us (yes I am straight, and Duane, Im not saying that this is what you were saying). This is one of the reasons why both the American Psychological and American Psychiatric Assoications don’t support such treatments. Being gay is not a disease. Disease implies some kind of impairment or dysfunction. The only impairment gays might suffer are social in nature as a result of stigma and discrimination.
I’m not going to even touch the religious arguments on this…
April 4th, 2006 at 4:43 am
Mike,
Thanks for your comments.
There is also scientific evidence to support that blacks are inferior to whites–according to Richard J. Herrnstein and Charles Murray, authors of the book The Bell Curve.
While scientific studies do have merit, if the evidence exists that their findings could be not as accurate as expected, the validity of that study MUST come into question.
While you and others have gone to great lengths to prove that your opinion is valid, the challenge posed here was to prove that the accounts of the individuals that I mentioned were false. As I have mentioned numerous times here already, just as I am to take the word of a homosexual that he or she are happy and content with their sexual choices, in the spirit of being fair-minded I must also take the word of those who claim to have once been homosexual but are now heterosexual and happy UNLESS THEIR ACCOUNTS CAN BE PROVEN AS FALSE OR INACCURATE. And one cannot do this unless these particular subjects have been thoroughly inspected.
weather or not these individuals have had a religious experience or not that ultimately helped them in their journey should not of concern here. What is known (according to their accounts) is that once they were homosexual and now they are not, and unfortunately for many on this thread if something does not “fit” your view of the world, you quickly denounce it without proving the contrary.
Kinda ironic, isn’t it?
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For now, I am done with commenting on this issue. I wish to thank everybody who took part and kept it civilized.
April 4th, 2006 at 7:35 am
I tried to post comments yesterday, once afer exe’s post and once after Mikes last’s post, but my comments never appeared. So, for what it’s worth, I posted it on my own blog.
April 4th, 2006 at 7:36 am
T,
Just in case you are wondering, no I do not filter out any comments–unless they contain inappropriate language or just spam.
April 4th, 2006 at 7:59 am
Sorry, Duane - at a bridge tourney in Dallas and not always much time to get on the computer.
Will try to answer some questions.
There may well be a FEW people who are able to “change” from being gay. I would not assert definatively that these people are lying or that it is absolutely impossible.
But, I know many, many people who live as gays, who claim that life IS much tougher when you are gay. I think that if these people could change - they would.
They are people who otherwise are good, upstanding people; good jobs, good neighbors, nice friends, etc. All that is “wrong” with them is that they are attracted to someone of the opposite sex.
There has been scientific evidence showing that the brains of gay men are physiologically different than the brains of straight men. Don’t have the research in front of me - but I could look it up.
Also - I honestly do not know what is so morally wrong with having sex with another adult, consenting partner. I know it says in the Bible you’re not supposed to …but then, the Bible says you aren’t supposed to eat pork, shellfish, and work on the Sabbath, too………
April 4th, 2006 at 9:34 am
Peg,
What you have stated before about the Bible is taken out of context. If you are really interested in what the Bible says, please read the WHOLE scriptures in order to get a clearer meaining. Somehow though I think that you have already decided on what you believe. So…to discuss this with you any longer would be a moot point.
April 4th, 2006 at 10:50 am
No doubt many black slaves who were forced to come to USA were GAY… Of course people are born gay….
April 4th, 2006 at 11:42 am
Peg,
Having been raised Baptist and forced to go to church and sunday school for the first 18 years of my life (I come from very religious, very fundamentalist parents) I’ve been through that book backwards and forwards. It also says ist’s a sin to eat a cheeseburger or wear mix-blend fabrics (so, no more McDonalds or cotton-polyester blends). I explained that to my mom once, and it actually shut her up for a while. It even says some of that in the same book people use to support discrimination against gay people. That much they take literally and apply to other people. So, it strikes me as kinda funny if someone wants to apply historical and cultural context to the rest of it.
Anyway, it’s been used to justify slavery and black inferiority at least as much as Nazi science.
What I haven’t heard addressed yet are the personal stories I mentioned in the comment I posted over on my blog about people for whom “reparative therapy” did’t work. They can’t be proven wrong any more than the one’s Duane linked to in this post.
At the very least they ought to suggest that there are some people who can “change their sexual orientation” or at least shift the focus of it, and there are some who can’t. Like I said in that post, some religious organizations and instutitions have already recognized as much.
At best, what we have her is a draw.
April 4th, 2006 at 1:30 pm
I think discrimination exists because we are conscious man now not robot do what you see people. Sure a lot of people don’t understand the conscious shift we have made in these past 2006 years but the shift has been made and its proven in the fact that we have disagreements we don’t always have to see things the same or even accept things we don’t understand just for the sake of appeasing people who live differently. BUT TO ME ONCE AGAIN IT GETS NO CLEARER THAN MAN HAVING AN OUTTIE AND WOMAN HAVING AN INNIE. Sorry I had to get basic but thats what we are overlooking the very basic basis of human nature.
April 5th, 2006 at 5:16 am
This was a good open discussion. However, I doubt that a single mind was changed. With luck, both sides will aqt least consider the opinion of the other side.
April 5th, 2006 at 10:58 am
Duane,
Thanks for your response. My response to some of your comments…
Most definitely. And their are plenty more scientists whose work has been used to make similar claims about Blacks (e.g. Rushton & Jensen). There will always be scientific evidence on both sides of any issue. Hardly ever will you find ALL the evidence in ONE direction. However, in this case most of the genetic and social scientific evidence AND personal accounts of gays seems to point to at least SOME genetic contribution to homosexuality.
That is an impossible challenge. Your original question of how it can be that a person is born gay when there is factual evidence to the contrary is much more answerable. Nobody can prove their personal accounts to be false without having in-depth knowledge of the individuals and their lives. At the same time their accounts do not make it true. Just as you say you must take the word of those who have become straight, you must also take the word of many more gays who say they have no choice in their sexual orientation. The accounts of the former do not negate the latter.
Im not sure what you think my “view of the world is” (maybe you werent referring to me personally?) but I think I was clear in spelling out how I think it is possible for a person to be born gay OR to switch to being straight. You will have to take my word that I am not and ideologue who is intractable in my beliefs. Im always open to being proven wrong.
April 7th, 2006 at 1:01 pm
Duane,
You appear to be very dismissive of those who believe that people can be born gay. I will certainly agree that I have witnessed first hand people engage in homosexual relationships for reasons other than because they believed they were born gay and that is what a lot of these former self-loathing testimonies sound like….I fail to see the “proof” in this…….
April 7th, 2006 at 7:06 pm
Perhaps this is the wrong question to ask. Perhaps it might be more productive to consider why we would agonize over such a question anyway. What if we are not born gay? So what? What if we are? Then what? Then you either propose to “fix” us, or accept us? At least lets be clear on the stakes of our debate.
February 26th, 2007 at 7:02 am
Are people born gay? If you ask most gay people they will tell you that being gay is not something they choose. Why would anyone choose to be something that could cause them to be scorned by society, rejected by their families, deny them rights and subject them to possible violent hate crimes? That is not to say that all of being gay is negative. In fact, most gay people said; once they came out, they’ve never been happier or more fulfilled…of course i am only 15 and do not know much about this but i do have many gay friends..and they told me that they would do anything not to be gay
(they could date girls/guys) but that would be a lie…i understand that some people do become gay because things that maybe happened during there childhood…but i think that people can not wake up one day and say I WANT TO BE GAY…most dont have a choice so they either come out..or they live a lie..i dont think it should matter if someone is gay or not as long as they are happy..
people are born the way there born….
32% of the population is born blue-eyed
25% of the population is born with attached earlobes
15% of the population is born left-handed
4% of the population is born with red hair
3% of the population is born gay *