Black history is everybody’s history…to use
First, the news…
GLAD and LMF reach out to African American community
Ethan Jacobs
“As part of their campaign to win marriage rights in Connecticut, Gay and Lesbian Advocates and Defenders (GLAD) and the grassroots coalition Love Makes a Family (LMF) have hired the Rev. John Selders to do outreach efforts to the state’s African American faith communities in support of marriage equality. Selders said his primary goal is to convince African American faith communities that the struggle for LGBT rights and specifically for marriage equality falls squarely within the black church’s long history of advocating for social justice.” (more…)
Okay, to the point–
If someone wants to be gay, then let them be. As I have discussed on this site in the past, being gay is a sexual preference, so yes they should have the same rights as all Americans–except marriage. I am totally against this option simply because it totally minimizes what marriage is really all about–TO REPRODUCE (my other reasons are outlined in two other related posts that I list at the end of this piece).
Another point–constant risky sexual behavior will in most cases produce unwanted results. Again, what you do in your bedroom is not my business, but don’t expect taxpayers to feel any obligation to provide “free” healthcare for something you choose to do (the same goes for heterosexuals who engage in this type of risky behavior).
The whole “right to marry” part of this debate is a total farce in my opinion. Most gays that I have known in the past and present are not trying to get married–which is why I say that being gay is about sexual preference.
Moving on to the central point of this post–
The gay movement in this country does itself more harm than good when it tries to compare itself to the civil rights struggle. If you go to places like Los Angeles, San Francisco, Hollywood, New York, Atlanta, etc. you will find many gays who are not only financially secure, but are well accepted into the culture. Even in the world of media, you will find MANY options for the gay community. Black folks could not have our own television networks–let alone take full advantage of the Hollywood machine.
A while ago, I had a chance to see about 30 minutes of a documentary that talked about Lesbian power brokers within Hollywood. I did not see any of them in a cotton field, being forced to sit on the back of a bus, being told to not look at others in the eye, being denied education, denied the right to vote–you get the idea. No, these were women who not only enjoying their “sexual freedom”, but were reaping the rewards of being “edgy”. Sorry folks, being “edgy” did not help my grandmother who cleaned the houses of whites in the south for years while being called by her first name by their children.
So again, what you do in your bedroom is YOUR business. But don’t equate “sexual freedom” to the blood, sweat, and tears of black folks. Stand on your own cause, not on the backs of black folks.
Other related posts:
March 30th, 2006 at 12:02 pm
“Makes me wanna holler, the way the do my life.†That sums it up. Two people of the same sex should not be afforded the same rights as my husband and I. Being gay is a CHOICE. I don’t choose to be black it is what I was born with. You don’t have to go around telling people that you are gay. When people look at me it is evident that I am black. There is absolutely no comparison in the civil rights movement and the behavior of being GAY!!!!
March 30th, 2006 at 12:33 pm
Makes me wanna holler too, but for altogether different reasons.
I’m a black, gay man. I’ve never been anything else. I always knew I was gay, from an early age, and “came out” at 12. I didn’t make a choice. It’s who I’ve always been. And, no, I wasn’t molested as a child. I was’t even sexually active until I went to college. I’m HIV negative. I’m in a committed relationship,and am raising an adopted son with my partner. Our son’s birthmother chose us out of 20 other families, to be his adoptive parents. This year we will adopt a second child through the same agency, where the birthparents choose the adoptive families.
What makes me wanna holler is how often we have to remind black folks that there are gay black folks too. We exist. We always have. We’re members of your community, members of your family, member of your church, etc. Too often we’re either required to be invisible in order to be accepted in our own communities and families, or leave them entirely if we want to live our lives honestly. And it’s stuff like what I read here that usually drives us away from our communities and families — taking our gifts and our strengths with us. So, if that’s what you want to do, keep it up. Otherwise, I’d recommend checking out the National Black Justice Coalition for more information.
And don’t get me started about civil rights. There were gay people — black gay people — in that movement too. Like I said, we’ve always been there. Look up Bayard Rustin for starters, if you don’t believe me.
As for reproduction, I can reproduce. No, not with my partner, but there’s nothing to stop me from being a biological father thanks to modern science.
Marriage isn’t for reproducing, but all that comes after reproduction, as it can create an environment of love, support and stability in which a child can grow. Gay people have families and raise children too (often children nobody else seems to want). My husband and I had a lawyer draft up every legal document we could to protect our family, but that gets us about 3 of the 1,000+ rights and protections based on marital status. I’d like for my kids to have access to those protections. It’s that simple.
March 30th, 2006 at 1:30 pm
What exactly?
From day one, man did not need “modern science” to reproduce. A male’s body is not designed to carry a child–so don’t fool yourself.
Take away all the toys, condoms, and other tools that man has invented and sex is all about reproduction. Is the usage of such “devices” wrong? I’ll leave that up to the individual. But if we want to know the original intent of such an important part of love between a man and a woman, one should take away all these added man-made features for the answer.
If you were to read anything I have said on this issue in the past, I acknowledge the fact that:
a) The black community must do a much better job in addressing this issue–especially the church.Absorbing the skills of gays while expecting them to keep quiet is wrong.
b)Gays were a part of the civil rights movement.
On (b), while gays were a part of the civil rights movement–THE MOVEMENT WAS ABOUT BLACK EQUALITY–not the gay agenda.
What really gets me about this whole issue is while numbers of gay individuals will play down the fact that both a mother (female) and father (male) is needed to raise a child, many gay couples will still have one partner play the role of “husband” and the other will be the lesser dominate figure.
So why bring children into your equation if it isn’t about reproduction?
March 30th, 2006 at 2:11 pm
Put away the violins and quit the sob stories. HOMOSEXUALITY is a choice. It is a choice because the only difference in what you are doing with a man and my straight brother is doing with a man is having SEX. Don’t kid yourself. If you didn’t open your mouth no one would know that you were GAY. Like Duane stated. Don’t stay quiet, don’t sit on the side lines but understand that as you are standing on the rafters shouting about how you are gay and proud you are being judge on that. Just as I am being judged on the sins that I commit. Your walk with God is just that your walk. However, you are not judged by deeds alone. Just because you have adopted a child that needed a home does not secure your place in heaven. What type of stability are you creating? One in which a child has to unnecessarily and prematurely defend his/her parents for living an unGodly lifestyle. If you want to be protected under the laws marry a woman.
March 30th, 2006 at 2:39 pm
Saudia. I’m not a christian. I’m a practicing Buddhist. Your beliefs are just that; your beliefs. You live by yours, and let me live by mine.
Frankly, I’m not shouting anything from the rafters. I’m just not hiding anything. I simply have the audacity to assume that I shouldn’t have to. If my next door neighbor doesn’t keep his marriage and his family a secret, neither should I. So I wear the ring my husband put on my finger six years ago, just like my heterosexual neighbor does. I’m not shouting anything from the rafters. I’m doing what everyone else does. And I’ll keep doing it. I’ll go the the PTA meetings and school programs with my partner, as our kids’ parents, just like anyone else would do.
We do all the things every other family does, because that’s what we are. So far, my experience has been that when people get to know us, and see that, they open their minds a little more; that is, if they’re their minds and their hearts are not already sealed shut. We’re fortunate to live in a community where that’s not the case.
And like anyone else, I won’t tolerate myself or anyone else in my family being mistreated. If my son has to defend his family against bigoted people, it’s because there are so many in the world. I willI hope that changes some day soon.
March 30th, 2006 at 5:43 pm
The attempts of those in the homosexual movement to co-opt the Black Civil Rights movement, and disembowl the morality of Black churches are disgusting, disgraceful and should be repelled vigorously at all costs.
Having said that I have employed both homosexuals, and transgendered people. Only because they were best for the particular project.
March 30th, 2006 at 7:04 pm
Most black churches are not strong. To feeble to standup aginst gays.
March 30th, 2006 at 8:13 pm
I agree with many of the points Terrance made. I personally don’t think that gays are saying or I’ll speak for myself, that the gay Civil Rights movement is equal to the Black Civil Rights movement. However, injustice and discrimination are just that whether it’s based on race, sexual ORIENTATION or disability and as human beings we shouldn’t stand for injustice for any group of people.
Heterosexuals and religous zealouts always talk about marriage being for pro-creation, so does that mean 2 people are sinning if they get married and have no children? You mean they don’t deserve to be married? Does that mean that once a woman is past her procreation years she should divorce her husband? The answers to these questions point to one simple fact. Marriage is not solely about pro-creation, but about a much deeper bond, which includes love and companionship. This is the very SAME love and companionship that same sex couples have for one another. And Duane, please don’t be as ignorant to believe that just because Terrance referred to his “husband” that that means he thinks of himself as the “wife”. You have to move outside of a heterosexist mind set that many people hold. Two men in a relationship are just that, two men. Some may see themselves as more effiminate than their partner, but that doesn’t mean that all same sex couples operate that way.
In relation to marriage and heterosexuals, there are many who make a mockery of the institution. The divorce rate continues to rise and some heterosexuals make an even bigger mockery when they marry someone on live TV after knowing them for 3 months and competing against 20 other women to marry him for his money. You can’t expect same gender loving couples who have built strong, healthy relationships over years to sit back and not feel slighted over the lack of seriousness that many heterosexuals have made over marriage.
Bottom line is, marriage is about love, companionship and growing old with the person you love. That should not be limited only to a man and a woman. Homosexuality is not only about sex. Some gay men have mulitple sex partners as do heterosexual men. You have plenty of str8 men who have sex with as many women as they can, it’s more a “man thing” than a “gay man thing”.
I commend Terrance and his husband for stepping up and taking care of chldren that are left behind by damaged heterosexual relationships. It’s a fundamental injustice as Terrance pointed out to not be allowed to have the same legal rights that married couples have, especially if you’ve been with your partner for 5, 10, 15 years. Yes there are same sex couples who have been together for more than a decade and deserve the same rights as a legally married couple.
Saudia- get a life, you are stuck in the stone ages and need to open up your mind so that you can see the beauty in all human beings, not just the heterosexual ones.
March 30th, 2006 at 10:10 pm
Absolutelee is absolutely correct.
Once again, my brain is boggled by the fact that those who have felt the sting of prejudice and ignorance can sling it back at another group.
For those who think that being gay is a choice, too - let me ask you: how tough a choice was it for YOU to decide to be heterosexual??! Take a lot of soul searching? A lot of research?
Yeah; I think not.
March 31st, 2006 at 1:21 am
Absolutelee,
Then you have not read the article or kept up with their campaigns in the black communtiy. These groups do not represent all gays no more than the NAACP represents all blacks, but they do regularly take such leaps to make their point.
I have met and know many gays for years now and I can tell you that my observation of these roles have been pretty consistant. I’m not speaking about Terrance’ situation because I have not met him or know him. I am just asking the question because those roles do exist in the homosexual community.
And it is about having children (for those who are able to do so). This has been one of the most important parts of the institution of marriage since day one. Hey, we can beat around the bush all we want with this, but anatomy does not lie. Remember, it was a heterosexual relationship that brought you into the world.
Might I ask what are “rising” numbers of committed homosexual relationships?
Peg,
I am not understanding your point here. Should we talk about the outrageous comparisons to the holocaust, or is that different?
Again, treating ANYBODY regardless of race, religion, class, or sexual preference in any way except as a human being is wrong. Let’s not forget that a bulk of this issue has nothing to do with the right to marry–it has everything to do with this ideology that suggests that if you do not personally condone or agree with the homosexual lifestyle, then you are a bigot.
March 31st, 2006 at 5:50 am
Duane, you are corrrect on the point that it is a heterosexual relationship that bought this beautiful human being into this world and I don’t suggest that heterosexual relationships are not valid and that procreation isn’t a needed things, of course it is. What I am saying is that I don’t believe that pro-creation alone makes the basis of a valid relationship.
When you tell a group of people (gays and lesbians) who have history, historical significance and contribute in every way to this society (just as Black’s have and still do), they deserve the rights that everyone else has.
I think heterosexuals just don’t understand how much freedom and power you have that gays don’t. If I were to die and have tons of assets that I want to leave to my partner, and some of this depends on state law, but my partners family can come and take all that or legally contest it more easily than if I were married. If you’re married and you put that in your will, law will respect that and family can’t do anything. There have been cases where gay couples have been together for years, and family has disowned them. One dies and plans to leave his assets to his partner, but then here comes the family trying to get compensated from a life they chose to deem insiginificant to them prior. How do you think that would make you feel if you put 10 years into a commited loving relationship to have this happen to you and you have no REAL legal protection? I have no legal protection stating that if my partner were in the hospital in the emergency room to see him if the hospital staff sticks to a “family only” policy. I can’t legally deem my partner family if we can’t marry.
And don’t think that heterosexuals who are in committed relationships and choose not to marry don’t get shafted by the Right Wing Homophobic biggots. All these laws about sodomy and banning second parent adoptions has impacted heterosexuals too.
What’s more disturbing is that much of the propeganda that so called religous moralists espouse they themselves don’t live up to! This has been seen time and time again in the anti-gay preacher who gets caught dating or having sex with men secretly. This happens with preachers who steal money for their own gains from their hard working congregation who THOUGHT they were giving to the church programming fund. This happens when a presidential administration gives lip service to improving the lives of the poor, but then allows many of them to be washed away with a hurricane and have their lives utterly destroyed because they chose not to act on information they had that told them that was going to happen in enought time to have made a huge difference in the mortalilty rate of Hurricane Katrina.
THESE are things we need to worry about. We need to stop focusing so much money and attention on banning same sex marriages and civil Rights, when the real fight needs to be about decreasing poverty, dealing with the very real problems of violence in our communities, the decline of young Black males in America and the list goes on. Preachers in Black churches should be focusing more on these REAL social epidemics rather than kissing the presidents ass to get money, favors or whatever else they feel they are gaining. While they attack gays, Blacks continue to suffer. Don’t get me wrong, I realize that Black preachers ARE doing something about these social epidemics, but they could do more if their attention wasn’t diverted.
The real sin that is created by homophobic bigots has to do with the after effects of homophobia and bigotry which can be seen in the lives of some Black Gay men every day. This is in part what is fueling the HIV epidemic among us and contributing to men not feeling they can be open about their same sex attractions.
(Duane, I haven’t read your site, so I don’t know what your previous posts say about your feelings on gays in general, so I’ll say to you “If it doesn’t apply, let it fly”. But I do know from what I’ve read of other comments on this post that there are people who can benefit from my soapbox speech.)
Bottom line is, I don’t need anyone to tell me that I am going to meet Lucifer because I love a man. Don’t judge me based on my sexual ORIENTATION, and worry about the sins you may be committing and rectify those!
March 31st, 2006 at 9:46 am
Okay, that is what you choose to believe. But pro-creation has always been a part of the cornerstone of marriages in general. What many (not all) the the gay movement do on a regular basis is to minimize this part of marriage by doing things like seeking to remove “father” from a child’s birth certificate (see one of the articles that I refered to earlier).
Again, homosexuals enjoy just as many freedoms as anybody else in this country. Like one of the commentors said earlier, he has knowingly “…employed both homosexuals, and transgendered people…” because they were right for the job, not sexual preference. If a person is right for the job, MANY (including me) in this country do not care. Only the media and gay activist groups focus on the few that do.
I have lived in communites where gay couples owned homes. There were no signs of protest. Like most developments, everybody kept to their own business. A very dear friend of mine lived next door to what I believe were two homosexual couples. He would always try to be friendly with them, but unfortunately they were not the same to him. Should I generalize and say ALL homosexuals are like that? Of course not. But I’m not buying the victim card here either.
Just like I am not generalizing with the homosexual community on bad encounters, please don’t do the same with groups that do not agree with you when you talk about the religious community. I can point to MANY in that community that will wholeheartedly love and embrace homosexuals without “soapboxing” them to death. I myself have had friends that I knew were homosexual. They knew where I stood, but we still had respect for each other.
No, what fueling the HIV epidemic is a society that says you can have any kind of risky sexual behavior you choose because its all about “me”. But when diseases emerge, its all about “society” paying for the cleanup. Don’t get me wrong, I’m all for the necessary reseach to eraticate sexually-transmited diseases, just let it be non-government funded. And yes, this applies to both homosexual and heterosexual communities.
And lastly, on your example of legally having the ability to leave your assets to anyone you wish, I agree with you. But again, this barely make up a fifth of this ongoing issue.
March 31st, 2006 at 9:53 am
I HAVE ONE SIMPLE ARGUMENT IF “GOD OR OUR CREATOR” WANTED SAME SEX MARRIAGES WOULDNT HE HAVE MADE IT POSSIBLE FOR A SAME SEX RELATIONSHIP TO PRODUCE CHILDREN. TWO MEN OR WOMEN CANT PRODUCE CHILDREN BUT SOMETHING HAPPENS THAT IS NATURALLY RIGHT WHEN A MAN AND A WOMAN COME TOGETHER AND THAT IS EVEN HOW GAYS WERE CREATED EXCEPT FOR THE CHOICE THEY MADE TO BE WITH THE SAME SEX . IT IS A MENTAL FLAW BECAUSE MOST GAYS I KNOW ARE A LITTLE BIT MENTALLY UNSTABLE OR HAD SOME HORRIBLE ACCIDENT TAKE PLACE WHICH SHOOK THEIR BELIEF IN REALITY AND THE WAY WE WERE INTENDED TO BE.
March 31st, 2006 at 9:55 am
AND TO TRY AND COMPARE THE STRUGGLES IS BLATANTLY DISRESPECTFUL AND CRAZY CRAZY CRAZY
March 31st, 2006 at 9:56 am
THE LITTLE BOY ON THE SIMPSONS SAID IT RIGHT BOYS HAVE PENISES AND GIRLS HAVE VAGINAS. AND TWO OF THE SAME DON’T REPRODUCE
March 31st, 2006 at 10:04 am
IM A BLACK MAN AND I DONT GO AROUND SCREAMING IT TO PEOPLE. GAYS ARE OVER DRAMATIC ON THIS ISSUE AND IT HAS TO BE A MENTAL PROBLEM BUT I DONT QUITE UNDERSTAND BECAUSE IT GOE AGAINST HUMAN NATURE AND ANYTHING THAT HAS GONE AGAINST HUMAN NATURE HAS ALWAYS BEEN DEEMED WORNG AND OUT OF PLACE. SO WHO CARES IF YOU ARE GAY AND WANT US TO POINT AT YOU AND SAY LOOK AT THAT MARRIED GAY COUPLE. I HAVE A BIGGER PROBLEM WITH THE DOWN LOW SYNDROME AND SEXUAL IRRESPONSIBILITY WHICH IS LEADING TO RAMPANT STD RISES
March 31st, 2006 at 12:53 pm
I am raising a black male in America. He has enough to deal with, without the constant bombardment of immorality. In this particular case we are talking about homosexuality. Next time we may be talking about having children out of wedlock. Christian, Jew, Muslim, Buddhist whatever. Right is right and wrong is wrong. Where do we stop? Do we allow child molesters to teach school? Do we let people have out right sex on TV during Saturday morning cartoons? The homosexual agenda is being forced on everyone. If I say something about it then I am some sort of bigot. Not just a concerned mother who does not want her 2 year old exposed to 2 men kissing at the park on Saturdays.
March 31st, 2006 at 12:53 pm
I have drawn my line in the sand and I am not budging anymore. Lastly to point of assets protection. Has anyone ever heard of a will? Not just some crap you right down on a sheet of paper. But actually going to a lawyer and having a legal document drawn up. You can be very explicit about who you want to have what and why. You can also put clauses that deal with who you don’t want to get a dime.
March 31st, 2006 at 1:08 pm
First, being gay is not a choice, anymore than being tall is a choice or, indeed, being black, white or any other color is a choice. It is as natural and normal a part of the entire human scheme as is being non-gay.
Second, civil rights apply to all Americans, not just black Americans, or white Americans, or Christian Americans. We are all embraced under the Constitution. It is disengenuous and hypocritical for any in the black community to be angry because another disenfranchised group wants to win access the civil rights to which they are entitled. And that includes marriage, which is a civil, not religious, right.
The civil authority authorizes marriage; the religious authority may only bless it. When a churchperson officiates over a wedding, s/he does it ONLY with the authority vested in him/her by the state. Marriage exists without religion, but not without the blessing of the civil authority.
And if marriage exists only for procreation, as one ludicrous poster has said, then it should be denied to those couples who refuse to have children or those, such as the importent or aged, that are unable to have children. And when children are fully grown, married couples should be required to divorce.
Marriage should be for all, and anyone who says different needs to read the Constitution and then take a deep look at why they hold such am ugly prejudice.
March 31st, 2006 at 2:25 pm
I am a bi-sexual white male.
I came into this world having
made any choices as to what i would be. Not my sex,(male -female) nor my skin color, or my sexual orientation. I take offense to remarks that have been made that any of these things were “choices”. God put me here on earth to be the person that i am, and to live my life in a way that respects and honor other’s as they are as they too had no say as to whom nor what they would be.
March 31st, 2006 at 4:13 pm
Saudia, so with your logic if HOMOSEXUALITY is a choice then HETEROSEXUALITY is a choice too, right?
And what if that young black male you are raising came home one day and said, “I’m gay!” What would be your reaction?
It seems like you believe that you shield your son from what he might naturally be. If he’s gonna be gay, there’s nothing you can do about it.
You can shame him and other gays, but it won’t change anything. It’ll only make YOU feel good if that is your goal, and even if he grows up and CHOOSES to sleep with men - nothing changes.
You’ll just hear yourself complain and moan.
March 31st, 2006 at 6:04 pm
I just stubled upon this site and I must say that my black brothers and sisters who are posting such crap are totally WHACK! Saudia, I hope your son doesn’t ‘choose’ to be gay, if so I doubt you’re going to handle it well. Oh, one more thing, I don’t like it when people display public affection. But I TURN away. That’s a CHOICE. Think about that the next time you see two men kissing. No one is telling you to watch. But on the other hand maybe I should say something to the next straight couple I see kissing or holding hands in public.
Brian, get real. We are not overly dramatic, we just want all the rights that every straight married couple enjoys.
And if those who claim to be ‘Christians’ (I have met a lot who have proclaimed to be Christian, but really aren’t)please re-read the Bible. I’m sure you will stumble upon many things that are bound to make you wonder:
Deuteronomy
21:18-21
“If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son…
Then shall his father and his mother lay hold
on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his
city… And all the men of his city shall stone him
with stones, that he die…”
So Saudia if you son acts up, are you going to take him to your elders and have him stoned?
Or how about this old chestnut:
“If a man lies with a woman during her sickness and uncovers her nakedness, he has discovered her flow, and she has uncovered the flow of her blood. Both of them shall be cut off from her people.” (Leviticus 20:18)
And last but not least, my favorite:
“Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property.” (Leviticus 25:44-45)
This one advocates slavery… I’m sure we’re all big fans of that one.
WAKE UP PEOPLE!
April 1st, 2006 at 6:50 am
Long Journey Home
I can’t go home as who I am and that hurts me deeply
~ Joseph Beam
I’ve written before of just what black gays and lesbians are up against in our own black communities, from beauty shops to baptist churches. I blogged about my own long jou…
April 1st, 2006 at 12:36 pm
T question why do care?
Do feel that heterosexuals go around say oh Iam Heterosexual? Do you want us to wear t’s that say that?
So what up with ” can’t go home as who I am and that hurts me deeply”
April 1st, 2006 at 8:57 pm
Eugene- What the hell are you saying? I don’t understand!
The one part I do understand I’ll reply to: The reason heterosexuals don’t need to go around saying they’re hetero is because this hetersexist society assumes everyone IS or SHOULD be heterosexual. Most marginalized groups of people make their causes overt, because they need to educate and let the majority know that “we’re not takin’ your oppressive ways without a fight”. What do you think the Black Power movement was all about?
Saudia- You need to remove the hate from your heart. If you are a Christian and believe in morality, then you should also believe the old saying “live and let live”. You don’t have to agree with homosexuality and you don’t have to understand it, all you need to do is mind your own business and you won’t have to worry about seeing two men kiss. I’m sure you have more valuable things to do with your time. What you should worry about with your 2 year old son is that he grow up to be a productive citizen and not get caught up in the negativity and path of destruction that so many young Black men today seem to fall victim to.
Oh and one last thing, have you ever heard of Anita Bryant? If not here’s my point: She was vehemently opposed to homosexuality and went across the country on her crusade to demonize homosexuals. Well guess what the spokeswoman for homophobia had to deal with? A GAY son! God has a way of teaching people lessons who don’t have unconditional love in their heart.
Brian- What are you talking about?? You and Eugene must hang out 2gether.
Just so you know, mental instability is a human trait, many heterosexuals suffer from it to, so what’s your point? Another thing, homosexuality exists in nature among animals, and as much as we want to think we’re not animals, we are, just higher level and with greater intelligence. Do you mean to tell me that you believe that humans taught two male monkeys how to engage in same sex behavior? I don’t think so!
For all you pro-creation zealots- have you ever thought that maybe God thought that there would be an overpopulation problem on the planet and that same sex couples who choose not to have children not only help with population control, but also adopt the children that have been abondoned by heterosexual creations? After all, s/he created sterility too!
April 2nd, 2006 at 6:14 am
For all you pro-creation zealots- have you ever thought that maybe God thought that there would be an overpopulation problem on the planet and that same sex “couples who choose not to have children not only help with population control, but also adopt the children that have been abondoned by heterosexual creations? After all, s/he created sterility too! ”
no
no
no
no
April 3rd, 2006 at 10:18 am
1. Nope not Christian
2. Don’t hate anyone
3. People in my home must live by the laws of my home or else they are free to leave.
4. I have issue with all immorality. (children out of wedlock, sex before marriage, disobeying your husband and God’s law, etc…)The topic here is homosexuality.
5. The Qur’an tells me that it is wrong so I live by that.
6. I don’t sit in judgment of you. My beliefs are just that my beliefs. The purpose of this Web site is to discuss and dialogue.
And Lastly, I agree with Eugene
NO NO NO and more no’s
April 3rd, 2006 at 10:56 am
I wrote a long reply to Duane’s comment Friday afternoon, but accidentally closed my browser before posting it. I didn’t have time to comment over the weekend, but I read the comments and was surprised at some of the assumptions made based on my initial comment. I’m not sure where some of them are coming from, but I’ll try to respond as best I can.
First, Duane:
I guess what I was addressing in my initial comment about “stuff like what I read here that usually drives us away from our communities and families” is the hostility that seems inevitable when it comes to discussion gays & lesbians in black communities.
I think you misunderstood me. When I said “As for reproduction, I can reproduce. No, not with my partner, but there’s nothing to stop me from being a biological father thanks to modern science,” I wasn’t talking about carrying a baby or giving birth myself. I don’t know if science has made that possible, and even if it has I have no desire to do that.
Notice I said “No, not with my partner.” I was referring to the reality that if I wanted to be a biological father, in vitro fertilization is always an option. In fact, I have a childhood friend who’s asked if I would be a donor should she choose to go that route. That’s what I was talking about. I didn’t think anyone would assume that I wanted to be pregnant. Maybe it’s based on the assumption that being gay means I have some desire to be a woman, but I don’t. I’m a man and I don’t have any desire to be anything else.
As for the “husband”/”wife” issue, I can’t speak to the same-sex couples you know. What I can say is that among the ones I’ve known, none define themselves as “husband and wife” with the stereotypical gender roles applied. Domestically, the division of labor has less to do with gender than with individual abilities and interests, or who happens to have a free hand.
Around house, my partner and I pretty much do all the same things in terms of housework and taking care of our son. Our relationship is one of equals. Neither of us is the boss of the other, and we make our decisions together, coming to a compromise if we can’t agree. Fortunately, we have enough in common that 99.9% of the time we find something we can both agree on.
Maybe I caused some confusion by using the word “husband.” It’s not because I identify as a “wife.” That’s the term I generally use for him, as well as the term he uses for me, because it most clearly defines what we are to each other. “Partner” sounds too much like we’re in business together. “Spouse” sounds too clinical. “Friend” sounds too casual, like we just hang out together once in a while. So, we use “husband.” We have since we exchanged rings six years ago. But if that confuses people, I’ll try to use “partner” instead.
Suadia had this to say:
I’ve come across this before, and it always strikes me funny that the people who say it don’t see the irony or contradiction inherent in it. I could marry a woman, but it would probably be the most dishonest thing I could do, because to do so I’d have to lie to everyone involved. In other words, I’d have to commit what some would call a “sin.” Yet this comment always comes from people who inveigh against what they believe to be the “sin” of homosexuality, and who seem oblivious to the fact that what they’re recommending is another one.
Besides, I’d pity the woman who did marry me, because she’d be marrying a man who doesn’t love her, would never be in love with her, and has no interest in her physically or sexually.
Eugene asked:
Again, I’m not sure where this one is coming from in relation to what I’m saying. To the first question, I think heterosexuals take for granted the various ways in which they declare their orientation (who they are, not what they do) on a daily basis; in big and small ways. I addressed this in another comment on the “Born Gay” post.
I don’t want anyone to “wear a t-shirt,” and I don’t want to wear one myself. I would simply like to be able to live my life as openly as anyone else, without encountering hostility or discrimination.
The quote was from an essay Joseph Beam wrote in “In the Life” and anthology of writings by black gay men, and addresses the hostility and rejection many black gay men encounter among their own people, and the pain it causes. As I’ve said before, it’s the reason so many of us have to leave our communities and families in order to live our lives.
April 3rd, 2006 at 11:21 am
There was one other question of Duane’s that I forgot to address.
Again, to me marriage isn’t just “about” reproduction. In fact, the simple act of reproducing or making a baby is only part of it. To me, it’s also about creating a stable, loving, supportive environment for a child to grow and develop. No, my partner and I cannot reproduce together (though either of us could do so with a female partner, even with in vitro fertilization), but we can and do provide a stable, loving, secure environment for our son.
Why have children? I can understand the question, because we don’t have to have children, and won’t have them “accidentally” either. I’d just have to go back to what I’ve said before. We’re not all that different from everyone else. Some heterosexuals want to raise children, and some don’t. The same applies to gays & lesbians. Some of us have the same desire to have families as anyone else. After all we come from families, just like everyone else.
Fortunately, we live in a time when it’s easier for us to become parents through adoption, surrogacy, or in vitro. My partner and I were fortunate to live in a progressive area where we can legally adopt, to find an agency that welcomed same-sex couples, and to be chosen by a birthmother who felt we would make the best parents for her baby. (We’ll adopt a second child via the same agency, later this year.) And we live in a community where families like ours are welcomed and supported.
April 3rd, 2006 at 4:11 pm
Although I have been posting to the “born gay?” string, I will emphasize one of my points here as well, since this seems the more appropriate string for it. I will repeat that the claim that Duane is making to start this string is faulty:
The odd thing about the statement is that it seems to assume that one is either black or gay. Last time I checked, all gay people are members of some racial/cultural group besides, simply, “gay” (please correct me, Duane, if this does not hold true for the apparently many gay people/couples you know personally) and for many gay and bisexual people, including myself, that racial group is black. And I can say from experience that, on the whole, I am sorry to find the black community much more homophobic than many other racial groups. So what is wrong with gay advocacy groups reaching out to the black community? Bout time, I say. Perhaps there would not be such a problem with “DL” bruhs coming home to share with their sham wives the bugs they get from their permiscuous, anonymous sexual encounters with other DLers if they felt free to live lives that are true to their sexual orientations without being shunned by their [black] communities, or hating themselves because of the homophobic rhetoric that is interwoven into the very texture of those communities in which they were brought up. Perhaps, were there more acceptance and less dogmatism and hate and “our-way-is-the-only-way” and “gays-go-to-hell,” they might be able to live in healthy, committed, loving, and mutually beneficial relationships with people whom they truly desire, exemplifying perhaps the most beautiful “purpose” for human marriage.
April 4th, 2006 at 5:52 pm
I’ve arrived late to this posting of yours so if someone else has pointed this out already, forgive me for repeating them.
You wrote:
“As I have discussed on this site in the past, being gay is a sexual preference, so yes they should have the same rights as all Americans–except marriage.”
I would just like to point out that the homosexual and the hetrosexual have the very same rights when it comes to marriage.
Both have the right to marry, neither have the right to marry a person of the same sex.
It may sound silly to some, but it is fact. Both the hetro amd the homosexual have the very same rights when it comes to marriage.
When the homosexual requests the right to marry a person of the same sex they are requesting a special right.
To the over all topic, when one group of persons hitch their waggon (agenda) to the cause of another group it usually means they have no substance to their own cause.
I also took note that many comments equuated homophobia and religion.
As a Christian I believe homosexuality is a sin.
I also believe lying is a sin.
Stealing is a sin… etc.
Any sin will seperate a person from God. Homosexuality will get you a ticket to hell no faster than will stealing a candy-bar.
God asks the same of the candy-bar thief and the homosexual, come to Him.
When you come to Him you will begin to reconginze and struggle with your sin.
October 26th, 2006 at 4:29 pm
“IT IS A MENTAL FLAW BECAUSE MOST GAYS I KNOW ARE A LITTLE BIT MENTALLY UNSTABLE OR HAD SOME HORRIBLE ACCIDENT TAKE PLACE WHICH SHOOK THEIR BELIEF IN REALITY AND THE WAY WE WERE INTENDED TO BE. ”
Firstly, it’s not a mental flaw. If it is then we’re ALL crazy because we all CHOOSE our sexual orientation. My best friend from childhood happens to be gay, and hey, that’s his choice, but because MANY people are complete bone-heads about it, there’s things that I don’t like. No matter what anyone says, I’ve always defended him because he is a human being. I defend him because I care about him, I appreciate his asset as a singer, he may be my good friend, but he is first and foremost human. And I can’t understand why anyone would deny any form of legal documents signed by him. He isn’t mentally flawed, he’s human, we all are, and I think what people need to realize is that this arguement is about being recognized as human and as someone’s partner. That’s the reason for Domestic Partnerships, so that people CAN be designated as a partner without having to be married, nor changing the definition of marriage.